Julia: Hearing Loss LIVE! Talks Requesting CART.
Hello from Hearing Loss LIVE! We hope you're doing well this February. Can you believe we're almost a month into the year, and we are so excited today to talk to you about requesting CART. We hope maybe you joined us earlier last week, I believe it was Thursday, with the Hearing Loss Association of America North Bay Chapter out of California, where Michele presented on requesting CART. Just a reminder, CART stands for Communication Access Realtime Translation. It is basically live captioning, it's what I've done for 20 years. And I'm going to just state what I've stated before, we are not a dying art, we need you guys to request CART when that's your form of communication. This helps us get students into the field and providing captions. That's just my big plug right there. I am going to turn it over to Michele Linda, she is our Hearing Loss LIVE! guru, and been a caption advocate for requesting CART for a very long time. Not that she's old, so it's still new, just kidding. Okay, Michele, go ahead and talk to us about requesting CART.
Michele: Thank you, Julia. I appreciate it. I have been doing captioning advocacy for over a decade and I've learned a lot. I started out pretty slow and didn't request CART for a few years, but then I decided if I wasn't going to request it, I wasn't really going to get better at requesting it, so I started a campaign of, I'm going to start requesting CART for things that I want to participate in even if I have to drive three hours south to the cities, I live up above in Duluth in Minnesota, and so I started doing that. And when you request CART, the more you do it, the more you do it better, and the more you learn, the more you know how to educate people when they have no idea about it.
CART is not something that the hard of hearing routinely request, and there are a couple of reasons for that. A lot of hard of hearing people don't even know what it is. A lot of the people who provide accommodations, who provide sign language interpretation, have no idea what CART is. And for the hard of hearing, it's just a matter of awareness or getting over that timid frame of mind where you don't want to be a bother, you don't want to make waves. So requesting CART, you really have to get in the right frame of mind, and that is thinking about requesting what you need, not as a complaint or as a bother, but something that is your right. The ADA guarantees full and equal access, and if an entity provides sign language interpretation, that means they know that they need to provide an accommodation, and you probably are going to have to educate them, some, but it doesn't have to be a huge ordeal.
I think at some point we will try to get some resources on our website template of a basic request letter. So, getting in that right frame of mind is a big thing. No one's doing you a favor by providing you accommodation. I mean, it's nice that they do, but it's not a favor, so we need to stop looking at things like that. When you request it, you need to sound confident in your letter, and when people have questions about it, you need to know how to answer those questions. That doesn't mean you need to know every single detail yourself, but you do need to know where to go to find the answer for that. And that's where belonging to a captioning advocacy group that's focused just on captioning advocacy is important. I started with CCAC captioning, and since then Global Alliance has come on the scene, and maybe there are some others, but it's always good to network with other people who are trying to do the same things that you're doing.
One thing I learned about requesting CART is give as much information in that first request as possible. I started out just saying, "Hi, I'm interested in your event, attending your event. I'm a deaf lip reader, and I need CART, which is, Communication Access Realtime Translation." And just something very basic, simple like that, which was a mistake because there's only been one time that I specifically requested CART when I wasn't offered a sign language interpreter. So, I learned pretty early that when you make that first basic request, let them know sign language is not my language, it's not my experience, it's not how I communicate or have access to communication, I need CART, which is a live captioner. So, by adding that little tidbit in your basic contact, you're going to alleviate that extra back and forth about CART, about them offering a sign language interpreter, which is no help for people who are hard of hearing and are not fluent in sign language.
So, a few things to remember, CART for the hard of hearing is exactly the same ASL interpretation for the deaf. You need at least three weeks lead time, the more time between when you make your request and the event really the better, the more you request it, like I said, the better you get at it, be prepared to educate. And a lot of people have the misconception that CART is too expensive. I'm not really sure how that got started, but I've run into a couple of organizations and contact people who have said, "Wow, that's really too expensive, we provide a sign language interpreter." And I tell them, "CART is no more expensive than a sign language interpreter, they're very comparable." And I usually share some information with them. If people just get fixated on the sign language part, you need to share those statistics with them. And it's not to say, hey, we're more important than the deaf community, it's just to clear up that misconception that all hard of hearing people know sign language, they don't.
Of the 466 million people in the world with disabling hearing loss, over 95% of us are not fluent in sign language and we're not going to access communication at any kind of a live event with sign language. So, it would be great at some point, if I could just request CART, and show up and have it be there. That's never been my experience except for one time, and that was for a lecture at the University of Minnesota, and they have their own interpreting and captioning units. So they knew what they were doing, and I didn't really have to have a lot of back and forth, I just showed up and it was there, although it was C-Print, not CART, and the lecturer was a very fast speaker, and so, the two C-Print captioners afterwards wanted to know how they did. And they admitted that they had a hard time keeping up and told me I should have requested CART, which I said, I did request CART. So, that started a conversation between their ICU unit. So go ahead, Chelle.
Chelle: Yeah. Michele, can you explain the difference between CART and C-Print for us please?
Michele: I think maybe one of you would be better able to explain it. I've only used C-Print twice. CART is a live captioner or a stenographer who uses a stenography machine, and the same as court reporters. And they have had at least two years of instruction on how to operate that stenographer machine. I think with C-Print, it's software and it's performed on a laptop, and two totally different things. And they each have their place. CART is verbatim, C-Print is not, I mean that it's meaning-for-meaning. They can reword things to get more meaning out of it or to condense it, whereas a CART provider typically types everything verbatim. So if there's anything else you guys can add to that, please go ahead.
Chelle: So this is Chelle again, and I think you covered it well. They work on a laptop, C-Print can't work quite as fast as stenographers, and they generalize the content, I believe, from what I've seen. And I've used both, and it depends. I still like knowing everything that goes on. So, I go with CART when I can. So I want to say, just real quick, when we film these, we use speech detect captioning because we need something to go on to see each other talk. And so, the speech-to-text today has been so far off that you see me smile every now and then, because it's just that bad, and this is why we need CART, okay? Michele said deaf lip reader, and it came out Def Leppard, and I can't help it, I smile. But we clean up the transcript, we make it all right in the end. Julia puts in a lot of work to make sure the captions are right on these videos when they come out. That's why we film a little bit in advance. So, I just wanted to let you guys know that. I can crack up in between scenes because I'm reading way off speech-to-text.
So, I recently requested CART for our upcoming Utah Women's Business Center event on February 15th. When I made the request, I gave them a lot of information, as in, I helped them to see what it was, what it does, because like Michele said, almost everybody knows ASL interpreters, but they don't know CART. So, when I make the request, I direct them to websites that talk about what it is and what it does, and then I will often give them a list of providers, especially local providers, and I know our deaf and hard of hearing center keeps a list of local providers, and then I let them go. And they came back with, "Well, how much does it cost?" Well, first of was, the director did know about it because she helped provide CART for somebody in the past. So I was like, "Wow, somebody who knows CART, that is wonderful." And she wanted to know how expensive it was, so there we are, they want to know how much it was. So, I directed them to the one interpreting website, which shows $30 for 30 minutes, so an hour would be $60 and they went, "Ah, everything all cleared up and okay." And CART requested, the CART request was granted. But in the past I've always run up a denial first, no, too expensive, or no, because basically they don't understand what it is.
So in my request, this was probably way back when my first request, which I wrote about on the blog, I'm not sure I gave all the information upfront so I had to provide more information on the second one. So that's why I learned to give as much information as possible in my first request. Then I get the denial, which I almost always expect anymore because they just don't understand. And that's our goal, is to help people understand CART more. So, in my second request, because I don't stop there, I keep going because I know pretty much that they have to provide it, they just need guidance. So, I will mention the ADA and the Americans with disabilities act, and outline exactly where they fall in the ADA, and that this is equal accommodation or equal access to communication for me. And especially when I've tried everything else and nothing worked, this is the only way I get to participate. So, eventually it comes down to a yes. So you guys need to make sure, I think expecting that denial almost helps because you are not put down, you're not like, oh, no. Okay. Well, that's it, done. So expect that denial and then do it again.
Julia: Thank you, Chelle. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just request CART, and just like somebody in deaf culture requesting ASL interpreters for them, companies just said, okay, and knew what that was. I always feel bad because you guys really have to stay after it, right? This is why sometimes you guys are my mentor because persistence is what's going to win, and if we're timid about requesting inclusivity, then we're not going to get it. And we're going to be sad, and miserable, and stay home, whatever that is.
Requesting CART should be as simple as a business knowing what accommodations are available for who. It's more than a visual screen reader for somebody with vision impairment, it's more than knowing an interpreting company to call when someone needs an interpreter, whether it's English as a second language or ASL, it should be as simple as knowing how CART fits in your business and taking some of that burden. I mean, I understand the person who's requesting needs to know what they're requesting, and why, and how it works. I get that. Whether it's an amplified phone, or a caption phone, or CART for a business meeting, but I really, really would like businesses to reach out if nothing else, take one of our trainings, and give it to your managers and your directors on understanding hearing loss, and then follow through on finding out about CART and having it in your arsenal of supplies for your employees.
Local onsite CART is always great. I think it's always going to be the best if possible. Remote is great with Zoom, a lot of people are doing Zoom meetings. And I'm going to say it again because if Zoom isn't listening, I hope they do, their speech-to-text is not good, it's not even close. We had hairy nose for hearing aids earlier today. So, I don't even know how those two are even close to each other. But businesses, if you're getting sign language interpreters, you already know one, it's a tax deduction to offer these services, that's a federal tax deduction, so you already know you're getting a tax deduction by offering services when you're requested, you just need to know what CART is. It's a fancy word for captioning.
And I'm not saying that someone needs it. I mean, well maybe they need it all day, maybe they're in meetings all day, and maybe it is a full-time job, maybe C-Print, which is also known as TypeWell, I think that's a little more common term for it nowadays, maybe that is what they need. Maybe they just need meaning-for-meaning, they just need a synopsis of what's going on for notes. And that fits their need. I'm never insulted when a student says, "I really prefer TypeWell over CART." At the end of the day, that person has to be able to pass the class. And if just meaning-for-meaning is all they need, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. Question for you, Michele, and I don't know if they do it anymore, I know Global Alliance has a list of captioners, and they can determine what TypeWell, or if they're a stenographer or whatever on their webpage, does CCACaptioning do that on their website where there's a list of providers?
Michele: I know there are a lot of resources on CCAC's webpage. I really haven't been on there recently, so I can't say specifically whether they have that or not, I'd have to take a look, but there are a lot of resources there.
Julia: Thank you. It's been a while since I've been on it too, and I didn't know if it was still there. Chelle.
Chelle: Another thing I want to mention is that I do all my requests for CART via email so I have a record, and I have a history behind me. And I also do it almost as soon as I register for an event, I don't wait and write up till, I do it a month to six weeks in advance or as soon as they let me know the event is happening, and then I request CART. I wanted to throw that in.
Julia: Michele.
Michele: This is Michele. Even though you said my name, I will remember to say my name, I've been trying to do that. Also, some events that you have to register for on the form, there will be an accessibility question. But what I find is they offer you sign language interpretation, often CART is not listed. And so, when that happens, contact the people. I don't want to register for something unless I know they are going to have CART, that is what I need. And so, contact the people and say, "You know, you don't have that on your request form, or your registration form." Point that out and let them know that they need to add that. It might take some pushing on your part, but a lot of people have added it when I've made it known that they don't have that as part of their listing for accommodations.
The thing about counseling advocacy in general and requesting CART, you need to do it in a tone that's direct, but also kind of convey that you're willing to work with them to help educate them. Offer them some help in areas that they don't know. Now that can go too far, and I've taken it too far a few places, I'm aware, they just now rely on me to figure out CART. And with my political party in Minnesota, they do not do a good job of facilitating for the most benefit from Courage. And so, they look to me to try to facilitate board, and that's not my job. The first time, the first convention I served on as a delegate, I gave them a lot of information and help because it was the first time my local convention organizers had provided CART. So, I'm going to help them, but then every time after, they thought, "Well, Michele, did this last time, she's going to do that." That wasn't my intent, and so, you have to communicate those things.
And again, your tone is very important, and there's a place to be compliant or helpful, and then there's also a place to say, "No, this is something that you need to do." And finding a way to tell people, "Thank you for what you attempted to provide, but it wasn't good enough, and here's why. And I would like to help you get to that point where you offer CART, and it can be as good as it can be." Because if the working parts of setting it up are not in place, it's not going to be the help that it should be. I've experienced that with remote CART at a convention, a political convention, it did not work well because they didn't have the microphones required, they didn't require speakers to come forward to speak at the microphone, different things.
So, it can get really into details, but you don't have to start that way. Remember, I've been doing this for over a decade, and I like to push the envelope in new places because that's the only way we're going to spread the word about CART among business owners, organizations, entities that are going to hire CART providers. But if the hard of hearing community continues to be unaware of what's available to them and they do not routinely request CART, we're never going to get to a point where it's a mainstream awareness about it, and that's what we need, and that's a big reason why we started this business. For me, anyway, I want to spread awareness among the hard of hearing community about the accommodations that are available to us, and how wonderful they are, and that you have to request them.
Julia: This is Julia. Thank you, Michele. More notice is always better, right? Whatever your request for anything, when you're asking for something extra, more notice is better. The more time you give somebody to look into their alternatives to how that CART looks. But I do want to say it's difficult, but it is possible to get it even if you're like two weeks out, and you're saying, "Oh my gosh, I just realized I'm going to need CART for this." Just because you're two weeks out, still request it. I don't care if it's the day before, you may get turned down because they can't find somebody, or you may have to do remote, or you may have to have TypeWell, but even if it's the day before, always request. It helps because then that person knows next time to just have it already ready, right?
If a venue knows they're going to get requested, when they're planning, they're going to have that in the plan, is the best way to state that. They'll have it set up ahead of time because they already know what CART is, if that makes a little sense. And in this day and age, remote works really well if there's a good sound system, a remote CART provider can work from anywhere, and join a meeting, and have it be even an overhead with enough knowledge at the other party's end on sound system, which is one interpreting. Actually, if they have a technician, they will work with whatever. Like here at The Event Center in Salt Lake, their technician will go and get all of the microphones set up for events so speakers can be heard by remote CART providers is what I'm trying to get at.
As a CART provider, covering remote conferences, I've worked with IT people, that's what we do. You send your tech guy, we'll work out the microphones. Some settings are better than others. Letting businesses know if you can send scripts ahead of time, it helps us know what the right names are, proper names. If you have acronyms, you have a lot of acronyms, stuff like that, you can add that in your request letter. If it's a specialized program you're working with, please make sure the CART, and I'll even speak up for interpreters, if you can let your ASL and your ESL interpreters know as well, your acronyms, it's just a much better experience for anybody.
There was something else I had along the lines with last minute CART, don't ever put it off because you think it's just too late. Oh, one time somebody was told there was a law that you had to have two weeks notice to ask for accommodations, that's not true, don't let anybody tell you that. And if they do, make sure you have it in writing and you need to take it to a lawyer, especially a disability law center in your town, because that's not true. Debunking the myths. Chelle.
Chelle: I wanted to add that, if you're a hard of hearing specialist in another state, it is very important that you request CART everywhere you go. Even if you're fluent in sign language, you need to represent our community and request CART. I was the first hard of hearing specialist, I think who routinely requested CART at all the events I went to because I was the first hard of hearing specialist here that wasn't fluent in sign language, so my language was CART. And I had constantly asked for it, and people became receptive after the first few times, and they were like, "Oh, okay." And it becomes routine, right? Julie was talking about microphones, and sometimes Wi-Fi is an important part at conventions and stuff, because I did attend one where there was, I think it was a conference all day, the Wi-Fi was so weak that the remote CART person couldn't hear it.
So, after the first workshop or whatever I was in, I went to the event coordinator and said, "This is not working for them, they're not able to get me the information." So he went to the event staff, and they actually got us hardwired into every conference room I was in. They'd open the little plate on the floor, plug in the wire, and plug it into the computer, and from then on, it was beautiful. So, there's always learning experiences with CART, and I remember I learned a lot from that. So, every time you do it, you're going to have something to add to your arsenal. And oh, if this is not working, try this. And that's because I've been requesting CART for so many years.
Michele: That's a good point, Chelle. I think the deaf community and the hard of hearing community should be co-advocates for each other. When I request CART and someone offers me sign language interpretation, I let them know they should provide sign language interpretation for the people who need it, they're not interchangeable. It's like, okay, we have this, you can't have that, you need to accommodate members of both of our communities. And so, I'm always advocating for sign language interpretation for those who need it, and I would hope that the deaf community would do the same for those of us who need CART. I thought of a few more things, but they've slipped my mind now.
Julia: This is Julia. Thank you, Michele. And you hit it on the head. I have heard employers who will say, well, I've got sign language interpreters, why do we need CART? They are not the same thing, they're not, what is it, synonyms? I can't say the word. They're not equal access of each other. So CART is for people who understand, read, speak English, they just can't hear it. American Sign Language is a language of its own, and the person may or may not be fluent in English. Just like someone whose first language is Spanish, or Korean, or whatever, they might understand English a little bit, but they need language in their first tongue. So, CART is not equal. It is equal, but it's not equal, and sometimes it's not interchangeable. If you're not fluent in sign language, and that's all you're being offered, you may catch three signs, and if you're like me, you're going to get two of them wrong. So, the understanding of whatever you need to know is not going to be there if that makes sense. I think employers, businesses, venues need to understand it's a different access to have equal access for those two forms.
Julia: There was something about requesting, and I've got to come back to it in my head, it's like right there, and I thought of it being important. I think Michele has mentioned, we will have in our glossary, our template on requesting CART, so that if you need a quick look at how to request, or something in writing, you need help writing it up, we'll have that for you. In our glossary, we will also have access to Global Alliance and CCAC Captioning, so that you can get to their websites. Also, Chelle mentioned, we, here in the State of Utah, do have a list of CART providers at our state website that you can download. I'm going to put a caveat, Chelle and I updated that list a year ago, two years ago, and recently looking at it, there's only two providers left on that list that actually are providing captioning. So, it really does need updating regularly. I'm kind of pointing that at state entities, please make sure you have a list that's checked every year and updated for people to get a hold of CART providers.
Julia: I really, really want businesses, I'm going to say it again, I'm a broken record, I want you to know what CART is. If you need us to come present and talk to you about CART, please reach out to us at hearinglosslive.com, or send us an email info@hearinglosslive.com, and we can come to you and talk to you about CART. And I have done many businesses where somebody has requested CART and they don't know what to do, so they give my name. And I've told the places, you don't have to hire me, but you need to understand what it is. And I always give a list of CART providers that I've worked with, and/or know, to companies so that they can reach out and get CART. We don't share our prices, so I won't right now, but I have done research with sign language interpreter friends, and we aren't any more expensive. So, if that's what you're being told, you need to say, no, you need to go back and get CART because it's not. And again, it's a tax write-off. I don't know if businesses understand that. So, just in case you don't understand, it does fall under your tax write-offs. I can't see my talk. So, Michele.
Michele: I just remembered what I wanted to say, you don't have to accept no for an answer, make your request confidently and directly, and with expectation, know that they could deny your request and be prepared for that, but you are under no obligation to accept a lesser accommodation. Someone will say, "Oh, well we have speech-to-text in certain situations." That's not going to work. We have all of these wonderful technology tools and communication tools, and what a lot of people don't understand is they apply to different situations. One doesn't work well every place, you have to gauge the situation and know what is going to be right for that situation, but understand that you are under no obligation to accept a lesser accommodation that is not full and equal access, and you really should stand your ground if that happens. If you need someone to advocate with you, contact your Deaf, Hard of Hearing Services Division office, if your state has a commission for deaf, blind, hard of hearing people like Minnesota or some of the other states do, and definitely feel free to contact us if you need some help composing your request. If you need any kind of support, we're happy to give you some guidance there, and just know that it's not you against the world, there are a lot of us trying to forward the needs of the hard of hearing and the accommodations that give us communication access.
Another problem with CART is it's not widespread, like in my town of Duluth, there are no CART providers, so someone has to come from the cities, which is a two, three-hour drive, and that's an issue. So, it's to our benefit to request CART routinely, make the world aware of it, and actually broaden that career choice because it's part of our infrastructure. We've become a global community that is much more focused on inclusion and diversity and accessibility, and so, I think those who provide accommodations for people with disabilities need to be valued, and welcomed, and actually encouraged to grow whatever it is, their business, their niche that they fit in. It's part of our infrastructure and it's not a waste of money, it's a huge investment in something that's wonderful. If you have a disability, the thing you want most is to remain independent, CART helps me to remain independent.
Julia: Thank you, Michele. Any other thoughts, Chelle?
Chelle: I just wanted to add real quick, and it doesn't have anything to do with CART, but it was an aha moment at our last podcast. And Cody from Listen Tech reminded me that things are accessible with the telecoil in neckloop and Bluetooth, and my hearing aids are Bluetooth-capable right now. I had completely forgotten that I could access audio via a neckloop. So, right after we ended that podcast, I ordered these little lightning chargers to plug into my phone because they have the plug, the audio plug. So, I ordered that and I ordered a neckloop. So, now I'm wearing my hearing aids, and you can see my nice, pretty red molds that I really like, and I'm plugged into my microphone because my microphone is only, like I've got the audio plug in it. So, I had completely forgotten that I could use a neckloop with this. So, now, here I am with my nice neckloop, and it's beaming the sound up to my hearing aids which are programmed to my hearing loss, so it means I'm hearing a lot more. So, no matter how long you've been doing this, I still have my dumb moments, and I'm very happy to report that neckloops are wonderful again.
Julia: Thank you for that, Chelle. That's something, I think a lot of people maybe haven't thought about, that they can use their neckloop, even though they don't have Bluetooth hearing aids, but that's good. That's good to know. All right. Any more thoughts? Okay. Request CART folks, request CART, businesses learn what CART is and how it can enhance your business. We hope you join us next week. I don't even remember what it is we're going to talk about, but we'll talk about something I'm having one of those days. Anyways, thank you for joining us. Remember to share and like this on your favorite social media, and if you haven't subscribed, subscribe to our YouTube page, then you can get content a little earlier, just letting you know. Thanks for joining Hearing Loss LIVE! Bye.
Join us next week, when we sit down with hard of hearing artist, Liza Sylvestre.